Интервью для журнала Ақиқат и Мысль_Eng

INTERVIEW (for "Aқiқat" and "Thought" magazines)

 of Zhumageldy Sakenovich Yelyubayev, Doctor of Law, Corresponding Member of Petrovsky Academy of Sciences and Arts (St. Petersburg, Russia), President of the Kazakhstan Petroleum Lawyers Association (KPLA), Member of the Governing Council of the Kazakhstan Bar Association


______________________________Interview was taken by Amankhan Alimuly


About the country, authorities and state security

Question:Dear Zhumageldy Sakenovich, you had a long government service and now you work in the field of international business, you are engaged in science, teaching at the university, so you know our reality from all sides. How would you characterize the current situation in our country? What do you like and what youdon’tlike?

Answer: The current situation in the country, I would say, worries our citizens, especially those with   low-income. The global economic crisis did not exclude our country, and it couldn’t pass bybecause our country is integrated into the global economic system, as we export our products, mainly hydrocarbons, and we import lots of  goods which are  not only industrial (machinery, equipment), but food and essential commodities as well.The situation is aggravated also due to mistakes in economicmanagement, which led to galloping inflation,devaluation of the national currency, economic recession, rise in unemployment, impoverishment of the society. You can continue with negative effects of the current situation, however, as a citizen of this country, I should say that I don’t like that the government does not have a clear, scientifically well-foundedprogram for the country to exit from the crisis.All the actions of the government - is the reaction to the current situation without a deeply thought-out steps for the future. The only positive factor is the fact that the country has created the National Fund, which accumulated considerable funds from the activities of subsoil users, which to some extent mitigates the crisis, specifically in addressing social issues. However this Fund is not a “bottomless pit”, therefore the government should very carefully and thoughtfully administer the accumulated funds.


Question: What achievements of the country and the government you can mention as plusesand positive development?

Answer:First of all, as a lawyer I would mention legal securing of the state border status of the Republic of Kazakhstan. Now Kazakhstan has no disagreements with the neighboring countries on the border issue. This is a great achievement in the situation when the world is so restless, separatist sentiments are growing in different regions, strongcountriesannexing territoriesof weak countries, wars are goingand there are attacks of terrorism and religious extremism.

Second, Kazakhstan develops its economy based on “laws” of market economy which is a guarantee to development of the country's economy on principles of competitiveness and focusing  on the society needs.

Third, it’s establishment of the collective security system in cooperation with Russia and other neighboring countries, which secures peaceful development of our country, and in case of danger from outside forces, provides reliable protection of the state and society

Fourth, its integration of Kazakhstan into the Eurasian economic system that extends the opportunities for our country in the sphere of trade and protects against excessive influence of economicallylargecountries, the so-called "sharks of capitalism".

Certainly, all the aboveis my own opinion and my civic position, and I don’t pretend formonopoly of ultimate truth. Butexactlythesedevelopmentsimpressmemost.


Question: What do you think impede the more successful development of our country? What mistakes you see in State-building and in the economy?

Answer: The successful development of our country is hindered by “oligarchic capitalism” which,unfortunately, is deeply rooted in Kazakhstan. By this I mean that following the first wave of state property privatization in the early and mid 90-ies of the last century, as well as in the early years after, significant assets landed in the hands of people close to the government and government officials themselves. The following yearsand up to the present, the whole sectors of the economy are under the influence of these people. This does not encourage the development of free business, it discredits the government,  forms negative attitude of ordinary citizens to "those in power" and to the government.

The established systemic corruption in the government structures from its top to thebottom prevents the development of our country. Someone may object my opinion, but look at the factsand my words will have the undeniable proof. Just to name a few, in twenty years of modern Kazakhstan history were sentenced two Prime Ministers of the country, a dozen of ministers and regions akims, hundreds of  low-level managers of state bodies, heads of state and quasi-state structures and national companies, judges, prosecutors, military leaders, representatives of customs services and of the Interior Ministry. And the list is endless. And how many of our “statesmen” and oligarchs, who had stolen billions of  income in US dollars, and are living in hiding being “on the run”, who made their billions  due to the existing corruption system in the country.

The main“drag”to the development of the country is the bureaucratic system of the country management. Government wants to control everything and everybody,instead of developing and establishing democratic institutions and supporting the developments of really free market relations. In all this, I see serious mistakes in state-building and economy.


Question: What’s your attitude to the government and the political system? What should be changed, so that the society could adequately take the government actions?

Answer: I am comfortable with the government and the political system. The only thing is that the government should be closer to the society,to live and to work for the benefit of its citizens. It is necessary to change the formula“life-for-government”, itshould finally understand the fundamental thing that government is supposed to serve the people”, be its vassal , and not vice-versa.Government should not feel as a special caste and upper class of the society. Government must limit its appetites and be focused on life and opportunities of the people it serves.I dont mean that there are no peoplein the government who are dedicated and committed to serving the society. There are such people, but unfortunately, they are a minority. That is why I want to see honest,  highlyprofessional and educated representatives of the nation in the government. I would like decent members of the society to come to the government, but not according tothe existing trickyand almost inapproachable system of candidates selection for the government posts and jobs.

We don’t need to invent our own Kazakhstani model of building agovernment employees corps, the world has already exemplary and democratic models of hiring for hiring for government jobs, and this is the way we need to introduce in the country. For instancee, a regular university professorin Europe, with no experience in government structure, could take the post of minister, because of his intelligence, education, experience in the field of science, civic-mindednessallows them perfectly to manage  this or that industry. And our selection and appointment system of government employees, it’s my firm belief, is corruptogenic and over-bureaucratic.

As for the political system, constitutionallyit is fine. But the political system declared in the Constitutionin practice is just a declaration. In practice we don’t have a working system of checks and balances, as we can not talk about the real independence of the branches of state power,since the influence of the country’s President and the opportunities of the executivegovernment significantly dominate over the representative and the judicial powers and “this is not good. We have no real opposition, and it’s not the problem of the government but a misfortune of the societywhich hasnot formed an effective opposition, in a goodsense of this word.Existing parties,which are involved in the formation of the government institutions, have no real public support. These parties, I would even dareto say “pro-government”,give just the impression of their independence and belonging to the people, however they are far from people. These parties exist due to the role of their leaders, who are focused on being close to the existing state power, opposing  only those issues which have small disagreements. And the ruling party itself exists just formally, only because the Head of the State is in the game.

I think a weak point in the state-building process is a deep-rooted in our practice early elections of the President, Members of Parliament and local representative bodies. It’sbad when enforcement of constitutional provisions,setting out the procedure and timing of elections,systematically fail. The election process in Kazakhstan depends on appeals from deputies, government initiative and other government entities, but noton any extraordinary circumstances that would cause a real threat to state and society and when early elections really ensure state security, protect the country from the extremely negative implications.Accordingly, I am confident to say that the economic crisis which has deeply shaken almost all countries worldwide, need to “rejuvenate” thedeputy corps and reform the state structuresor any other similar circumstancescannot be  a sufficient basis for early elections of any government bodies in the  country.

Too frequentreorganization of the government gives an extremely detrimental effect to the system and quality of the state management. Endless mergers and demergersof ministries and departments, creation of new state and quasi-state structures, frequent change of oblast akims, ministers and other heads of central government bodies breaks the political system of the country,  erodes responsibility of ministries and departments and their leaders’ operating results, destroys the continuity of the adopted solutions, as every new our minister introduces his own reforms. Hence, for twenty years the country lives in the context of government reforms, which unfortunately does not improve quality of state management.

To summarize the above, I want to note that tpeople will really support that government which protects the interests of the people, responds to their aspirations and expectations, bringsthem decent living standards. But at present there is a wide gulf between the government and the people...


Question: How do you assess the economic situation in the country? What’s wrong? Are  there any prospectsfor  successful development of the country in the coming years?


Answer:I’vementioned already the current economic situation. I'm not an economist, and it’s difficult to make a competent assessment of the current situation, though I will try to express myvision on the past, present and future of our economy, from my life experience. If we talk about the initial stage of our country development in the context of independence and sovereignty, I must say that the top leadership of our country, first of all, the President, took absolutely the right decision on  transiting to market economy and giving an entry to foreign investorsinto the country.This helped the country to survive in the difficult 90-es, to create the base for the economy, to solve social issues, for Kazakhstan to become a part of the global community. However, I think there were mistakes, which are not so easy to correct after more than twenty years. One of mistakes is that we have completely destroyed the agricultural sector of the country, destroyed the village in the broadest sense of the word, the villagers lost their skills to work and we facilitated the migration of rural population to the cities. It's hard to say how it would be possible in those days to save the agricultural industrybut I am still sure that something could beprotected and done at least by means of direct investment from the leadingin this industry, countries.During the years of the modern history it was needed to create its own industryand again by virtue of investments,it wasnecessary to build the required plants and factories, not giant one but quite manageable. There were and there are basis for such approach - it’s raw materials, in particular extracted from the subsoil. For instance, I cannot still understand why the country with oil has noenough gasoline and why we buy it in neighboring Russia. I could only assume that that for the state, i.e.for the ruling governmentit’s more profitable to export raw and get paid for it in currency.And this approach came back today, when the oil price does not meet our expectations, i.e. the over-reliance on oil does not bring those profitswhich were expected. For most of these yearsthe Government has been indulged in a variety of breakthrough, innovative and other cut-off from reality projects, but nothing positive such projects brought for the country and the society, they simplyturned into“pipe dreams”, impracticable schemes.

As for the future, I have to say that the government should encourage the development of small and medium-sizebusinesses, as it is small and medium business should become the basis of the economy and home policy. In addition to this, the law should envisage different long-term preferences and privileges and even, possibly, in taxes. It is necessary to improve the system of state regulation of the relations in the field of small and medium-size business, excluding totally any intervention of supervisory bodies into their activities.  So as the firemen, sanitary inspectors, local police inspectors and all other sorts of inspectors would loseany interest in “a dialogue” with representatives of small and medium-sizebusiness, if the law would impose measures of responsibility for their intervention. The market law will do its job, those businessmen who practice consumer fraud, produce low-quality products or provide bad services will just go awayand those who have the best products and best services will remain.

For a large, and possibly, medium-sizebusiness, it’s needed to create conditions for attracting investments, including foreign capital. Moreover, you shouldn’t afraid of foreign investment, no country canmanage without them, even moreKazakhstan cannot develop further, which has no available funds for the development of large-scale business opportunities, especially in the subsoil use area.

Finally, it’s time to turn to the agricultural sector. This sector of Kazakhstan economy should be a priority which would help to form a new image ofa villager and a peasant, satisfied with his work and lifeconditions.


Question:You have a very good knowledge of the Kazakhstan’soil and gas industry. What role this sector of economy plays in the future of Kazakhstan?

Answer:The oil and gas sector is still a driving force for the Kazakhstanieconomy. Thanks to this sector of economy, many government plans are being implemented, social issuesbeing addressed, the budget is funded, by giving more than 50% of all revenues to the republican and local budgets. God gavenatural wealth and resources to our country, in our subsoil resources can be found almost the whole periodic table, therefore the oil and gas sector, will be still for a long time playing a major role in providing economic security of Kazakhstan.


Question: Why there is a dominance of foreign companiesin the oil petroleum industry? They export our raw materialresources, the government and the society don’t see any  benefit from their activities?

Answer:I would not agree with this position, because Kazakhstan’soil and gas industry successfully develops due to foreign investments. Tengiz, Karachaganak and other investment projects illustrate this well. Indeed, sometimes, our citizens condemn the RK Government and high-ranking officials for the dominance of foreign investorsin the country and that the produced raw materials and their export revenues are draining out abroad and that Kazakhstan gets a miserable amount.With a narrow-minded point of view it actually looks like this, but foreign investors participate with big shares in the investment projects and get the relevant profit from their activities on the territory of our country. However, these major projects, especially in the petroleum sector are successfully and profitably progressing due to efficient operations managementprovided by foreign managers, by introducing high and safe technology and due to investment of billionsdollars (in US dollars). The Republic of Kazakhstan, not only now, but in its best years of economic stabilitynever had and does not have sufficient funds to developthese projects.  Kazakhstan has no funds to developnew fields, such as the Caspian Seaoffshore. Although, the new fields discovery and their development would help to lift the country economy to a new level which would in its turn help to develop other industries (agricultural, processing and other)and address the social issues more successfully. Hence, the society must move away from the narrow-minded approaches in assessment of the current situation in our country, since without private investments, both foreign and local, nofurther economic growth is possible, which is the basis for successful development of the society and the state.The entire world lives this way, and Kazakhstan at the present stage of its development should not look for its own special way. It’s necessary to use the best international practices, foreign capital, high technologies, which are available in highly developed countries. On this basis, also be said, at this transition phase, there is a need to develop its industry, science and develop high technologies. This will allow our country to reach the ambitious goals - to create an efficient economy, democratic government institutions and society that will allow it to join the ranks of the developed and democratic states in the world.


Question: Can Kazakhstan be able to independently develop its rich and strategically important deposits without foreign investors, or at least with a minimum of their participation?

Answer:Not for today and in the near future, unfortunately, there is also no such possibility. As I earliersaid, Kazakhstan doesn’t’ have available funds to developstrategically important fields, particularlyfor exploration and development of new deposits. Kazakhstani companies working in this areaareheavily in debt and they would need somehow to survive in this situation. The only thing is to establish the best investment environment in the country, so that to let foreign investmentsflow to Kazakhstan. I should say that there is a competition between the countries with rich natural resources in attracting foreigncapital, especially between the countries with developing economies, among which I would list Kazakhstan.


Question:How do you find thestate of the Kazakhsociety, is it active? What is needed to raise self-consciousness of the people and their proactive attitude to address public problems?

Answer: Before the current crisis, Kazakhstani peoplehad more confidence in their future. Even one could observe some uplift in patriotic feelings. But todayhigh inflation, the devaluation of KZT, decrease of population incomes and increase of prices on most essential goods and food productseven more set the people apart from the government. The population of Kazakhstan can be described as passive, pressing problems and complaints are discussed “in the kitchen” and only among the kindred people.I would even dare to say that most people are afraid to openly express their position, that’s why everything is discussed on the sidelines... There is a saying that “every nation deserves its government” and there is some truth in the saying. Passive attitude of people, unwillingness to participate in public administration through their representatives in the representative government bodies leads society into an amorphous state. Another problem here is that our political system and the government had not establishedany really functioning democratic institutions of the societywhich would allow the country citizens really be on a par with the state authorities.The electoral system to the representative power bodieswhere the dominant role is played by the  ruling party, plus the mechanism for appointing the part of deputies by the Head of the State and the Assembly of People of Kazakhstan, create more and more gap between authorities and people. There are certain difficulties in protection of citizens’ rights and legal interests, and for this it is to blame the current bureaucratic government system, arrogance of officials, the costs of the judicial system. Try to get an appointment, let’s say, to the oblast akim or the minister, it is practically impossible for an average citizen.Everything there is decided by assistants and otherclose to them people, or you need to arrange a call from anauthority figure the so called  "agashka”. Nevertheless, the importance I think not in people's participation in government control but in providing decent life for the countrycitizens. Creation of real opportunities for protecting their rights and legal interests, a favorable climate for doing business, support to social problems would then help people understand the authorities and the government could be proud of its people, for whose sake it exists.


Question:You are a lawyer, a scientist and a practitioner. What is your estimate of the established legal system in our country? Is everything all right?

Answer:In general, the legal system of Kazakhstanthough being not perfect still however is quite normal. If everyone who works in this system would be highly professional and honest, then the state of law order in the country would be at a good level. Unfortunately, the prolonged reformstendency, the existing systemic corruption, imperfect mechanisms of staff selectionto the law-enforcement agencies and  courts have made our legal system the object of criticism and mockery of justice from citizens of our country and other countries working in Kazakhstan.We don’t have stability in the legislative process. For all these twenty yearswe are reforming and improving our legislation, and we’vemade such a mess in this area that it will take years to stabilize the situation. Legislation should beconservative, and the core thing is the formation of a uniform enforcement practice. Only a long-standing practice of law enforcement makes it possible to detectits shortcomings and imperfections. We have a manner to create laws for every reform in any sphere of economy or state building, then in a year or twostart a new reform and again we change laws, and this is endless ... It is necessary to finally stop the “itch” of reformism, calm down, understand and assess prior experience and start living according to the existing laws.Certainly, there are areas which sometimes need urgent adoption of new laws or changes of existinglegal-regulatory acts. But such cases must be very rare and exceptional. We have Constitution, a well-declared political system and its authorities, we have market laws and the Civil Codewhich is the principal legislative act that regulates public relations, there are laws which provide for liability of citizens and legal entities for delinquencies, there are other important regulations allowing adecent life and develop the State and society. We need to be constructive but not live in the process of endless reforms which are sometimes undertaken only in order to hide the lost opportunities, distract the public attention from the problems and mistakes of the government.


Question:One of the most serious problems of our country is a widespread corruption. How to fight corruption? What must be done to have a healthy society free from corruption?

Answer: It’snotasimplequestion and,moreover,there is no a clear-cut answer to this. We can see many examples ofsuccess stories and struggle against this evil in the world, one of the best-known is the experience of Singapore, Hong Kong and the most recent is the Saakashvili’s reform in Georgia. It is difficult, almost impossibleto get rid of this draw-backin our lives and consciousness. Nevertheless, I believe we can successfully fight corruptionif we’ll have a mutual desire of state power and society. For instance, if the governmentshall less interfere into business and peoples’lifeand won’t try to rule all and everything.We must create such conditions where business and citizens can less address to state bodies and officials. The principle“what is not forbidden is allowed” should work. It’s necessaryto keep to minimum the list of permissible business, need to simplify the system of citizens’ obtaining various documents in the state bodies, and where the address of the citizens must mean an obligation to issue the requested document.  The officials should not play a key role in this system.  Those officials found incorruptive delinquencies should be immediately expelled from the government system and forbidden to return to state power. However government employees should receive decent salaries and have a defined social package. The staff selection system for government jobs should be based on the principle of equal opportunities for all citizens.Any citizen should have the right to become a government official of any rank depending on his education, experience and other positive qualities, but not be dependent on the decision of high-ranking official who divides potential candidates into corps “A”, “B”  etc. There is a lot of subjectivity in the existing system, when too much depends on top officials, on the phone call from “agashka”, family ties and even on ethnic traditions of “tribalism”.


Question:The world is not a quiet, there is a sharp rise of terrorism and religious extremism, actually world-wide, even in peaceful Europe. What should be done to strengthen the national security of our country? What threats to our country’s national security you see at present?

Answer: Threats to national security of any state exist always. Kazakhstan is located not in a very stableregion. Civil war in the Middle East, sharp rise of terrorism, unfortunately, supported by some countries, religious extremism requires the State very carefully to monitor the situation so as all these negative developments would not spill over our region. The law-enforcement agencies, primarily the National Security Committee should be on the alert and must develop an effective system to protect the society from these hazards.In my view, at present the situationis the most dangerousposing a threat to public safety in our country. At the same time, I do not see anything serious,threatening the sovereignty of our countryby seizure of the territory, opening of hostilities, serious damage to the economy, staging a coup d’état, emergence and development of separatistsentiments. The existing system of collective security where Kazakhstan participates, and the established political and social institutions in the country are thereal guarantee against such threats.Meanwhile,national security meansand covers in addition to social security also a military security, political security, economic security, information security and environmental security that allows more accuracy to ensure national security and to find the most effective ways to protect the interests of society and the State.


Question:You are teaching at the law faculty of the Kazakh National University after Al-Farai, you are an Honorary Professor of the Eurasian National Universitynamed after L.N. Gumilev and of the Kazakh Humanitarian Law University, you are publishing a lot and in 2014 you issued a 10-volume publication of your works. In this regard, could you share your opinion on the current state of the higher school and science in Kazakhstan?

Answer:A couple of years agoin one of my interview I have already answered this question. I’ll just briefly reiterate. At the law faculty of the Kazakh National Universitynamed after Al-FarabiI teach special courses for students of the master's program and for PhD candidates(Doctor of Philosophy). I do lecturing, give seminars and help students with their diploma papers being their academic advisor. I read the review lectures at other universities on subsoil and environmental laws. I must honestly say that the current level of the educational system in schools, colleges, universities, is significantly below the level that was during the Soviet era. Certainly, there are some schools that are model of higher education in Kazakhstan, but, unfortunately, they are just few. However, students who wish and thirst for goodknowledge getsuch knowledgedue to their diligent attitude to studies and thanks to dedicated

Why did it happen? In my opinion, the education system and higher education suffers lots of reforms with no end in sight. Every minister of education and science brings his reforms without their detailed examination, testing, discussion with leading masters of the education system and higher school, withoutindependent peer reviews. There is subjectivity in everything, desire of every minister to get into a cohort of the great reformers.

The education system and high school must be a conservative system, not ignoring the best practices and accumulated positive experiencewith careful introduction of something new. How proud we were of Soviet school of education and science, it was one of the best in the world, but we have lost it and created nothing better and more stable instead. I am not against reforms, but they need to be implemented gradually and with careful consideration, they should be based on time proven concepts, but not by way of destructing the oldone which has proven its right to “life”. Finally there must be a continuity of high-level decisions, voluntarism and subjectivism in the education system and higher school should be excluded. There must be stability of the system which the key to success.

As for science, it is far from perfect due to the same reasons. It should be noted that university teachers - degree holders (Candidates of Science, Doctors of Science, PhD) have noenough time to be engaged in researches and pursue science, as most of their working hours they spend for teaching and organizational process. Very few of them are actively upgrading their skills, pursuing scientific researches, writing textbooks and manuals, participate in theoretical discussions in mass media.Actually, most of these teachers do not go beyond their candidate and doctoral theses, and then never deal with science at all, though from time to time they have to participate in the preparation of some collective works, in some projects, conferences, where their role is rather passive. I believe that people with scientific degrees and academic rankshave a duty and obligation to be systematically engaged be engaged in scientific researches at least in the areas where they consider themselves as experts.They need to understand that getting and having such degrees does not mean that they are in the science, and as we say, it's just “a timid knock on the door of science”. The academic degree must be supported by specific scientific works, active involvement in science, participation in the theoretical debates, defending their positions on the matters where they see themselves as aces, achieving the bestoutcomes of their work, etc.

It’s deep regretthat the complete destruction of the Soviet system training of scientific staff, the system of defense and award of academic degrees in Kazakhstan, a widespread and hasty rushof low qualityPhDsin education and science under pretense of joining the Bologna Convention completely destroyed the positive experience in preparing and training “men of science”. It should be noted that the so-called Bologna convention (Bologna process) does not at all deny the national systems of education and training of scientific staff. Apparently, it was prestigious for education officialsto run “ahead of the rest” and totally switch to the western education system without thorough understanding of its essence, its principles and its mandatory provisions for thecountries parties to thisconvention.This is another and separate topic for discussion, but my strong belief that the taken reforms in the educational system and training of scientistsbrought more harm and troubles than benefits. And now to bring back the previous levelof the education and science quality, not areform is required but the entire revolution in this very important area of our society, or to go by  evolutionary way and spend many years torecover the lost.

For further development of Kazakhstan science it is necessary to return the former system of scientiststraining so as to let Kazakhstan citizens to defend their candidate and doctoral dissertations not in Russia, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and other countries but at the home country and to contribute to appearance of new masters of science among the current generations.No one can convince me  that modern masters of law have the same level of knowledge and training as candidates of juridical sciences, or that the modern holder of PhD (Doctor of Philosophy) has a more substantial and significant status than doctor of law in the old system. Obviously, such a comparison can be made if they both defended these academic degrees independently,based on the results of their scientific researcheswithout any cronyism and bribes.


Question: Please tell about your personal qualities that help you in your job. Is it important for the lawyer to have a bold spirit?

Answer:It’s difficult to tell about myself,usually, colleagues, friends and managers should tell about you ... I can just saythat one should beactive, responsible, honest, independentand a professionalwith bold spirit. It’s necessary to set a goal and pursue itand not rest then and be calmbut move further, develop skills and qualification, strivefor the best and aspire for the sky and this will make lifeinteresting and self-sufficient. I do not consider myself an ideal, butin my life I tried not to get anyone in trouble, to do a good and honest job, to treasure friendship and trust, tried to respond positively to criticism and make appropriate conclusions, and believe me, it's not easy. I am quite happy with my life and with what I’ve been able to do in this life.


Question:  Please tell about yourself and your family?

Answer:If to speak about my family - I am the happiest man. I have a wonderful wife, Zhibek, my muse and my support. Half of all my achievements in this life are her,if not more. We have brought up two children. My daughter, Zhanar, successfully graduated from law faculty of the Kazakh Humanitarian Law University when its rector was a well-known Russian and Kazakh lawyer A.N.Shaikenov, she received a Bachelor of Laws at the University of Nottingham, which is one of the best law schools in the UK, and then also there she benefited from two years internshipwith the well-known western lawfirms, after that she defended her master's degree in law at the London school of Economics and Political Science.She worked in various law firms abroad and in Kazakhstan and today she is a partner of the “COLIBRI” law firm.

My son, Zhannat, received a bachelordegree in business administration and accounting, and also a Bachelor of Social Sciences in the Kazakhstan Institute of Management, Economics and Forecasting under the President of RK (KIMEP). In 2009he received a master's degree in business administration in finance from the University of Northern Virginia (Prague, Czech Republic).

As for the grandchildren, it’s a special planet of the existence, I have four of them - Naziya, Zhaniya, Aruzhan and Amir. They are our pride and joy, we are anxious to see their success in education and life. I'm sure they will be worthy citizens of their country. This is the way of link of times and the continuity of generations...


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